You know how important clerkships are, you worked your butt off to apply to as many firms as you could, and now you’re waiting on the Whirlpool forum clerkship thread to confirm offers. All you need is just a few, just 2 or 3, and… everyone is getting them except for you.
Contents
- 1 Intro to this post
- 1.1 You’re not alone
- 1.2 Whirlpool users discount the significance of luck
- 1.3 Didn’t have a high distinction average?
- 1.4 Nepotism and connections
- 1.5 Application screening is far from standard
- 1.6 No one knows what the perfect mix of extracurriculars will be
- 1.7 Don’t just look for excuses!
- 1.8 Don’t stop looking
- 1.9 And finally, keep your head up!
Intro to this post
I remember this time as one of the most stressful and disheartening periods during my law degree. Every time a Whirlpool user confirmed that another firm’s offers were out I would grab my phone to refresh my email, and then again, and then once more (just in case it didn’t update correctly the first two times).
I applied to around six firms (idiotic, I know) and received a grand total of zero offers. They were all top-tier and mid-tier firms, so the confirmations on Whirlpool came out hard and fast, and with each one that feeling at the bottom of my stomach became heavier with the realisation that all I was going to score a big fail on the Whirlpool clerkship thread.
It seems like almost every person in those threads ends up with 5 or 6 offers – it’s so unfair! Further, the advice they give afterwards is pretty much what you did. So where did you go wrong?
The purpose of this post is to provide some perspective for those that missed out on offers (or didn’t receive as many as you thought you would).
You’re not alone
These kinds of threads are self selecting. When people are happy they want to tell the world, and how can you really blame other law students who want to boast about receiving offers? I would have posted a humble-brag “confirmed FH” if I got an offer too.
Just remember that there are probably only 50 people posting in the thread – tops. There are hundreds of other law students who applied to your firms but missed out, and thousands of other students who applied across Australia and didn’t end up with anything.
You are definitely not alone. Take a moment (or day, or week) to cry, eat one of those over-sized 1m blocks of Toblerone, scream, silently implode or whatever it is you need to do, and then start thinking about next steps.
Whirlpool users discount the significance of luck
Clerkship applicants who receive 5 or 6 offers have obviously done something right. The problem with the Whirlpool forums is that you you will find these people (and even the ones with “just” 1 or 2 offers) giving advice as if they knew exactly what they were doing all along.
I’ve spoken to many students who have been annoyed at themselves for not doing something differently, or for not doing more – if only they had got some experience in this CLC, or picked up a paralegal position in that private firm, or went to a few firm clerkship events, or spoke to a particular partner on a particular day…
You can’t control everything and you can’t predict the future, so try not to go down this path. Luck plays such a massive role in clerkship applications these days (and the same goes for graduate applications and offers). Sure, you will need to have good marks and some relevant legal or other experience, but almost everyone does!
I tend to think that the people with 5/6+ offers have just gone with the scatter gun approach and have done a very good job at padding out their CV – they didn’t have some grand plan that, carefully executed, has resulted in their success. They just ended up with something on their resume that the firms wanted.
There is no real way for law students to know what individual law firms are looking for. Don’t beat yourself up that you didn’t have some grand plan like everyone else.
Didn’t have a high distinction average?
Again, self selection plays a large role in posting grades on Whirlpool, and a lot of people claim that you need at least a distinction average to even be considered for clerkship applications – a high distinction would be even better.
I’ve been at my firm for a number of years now and I don’t know what the cutoff is. I think it’s fair to say that there would be one, but it’s not something that we all know about (I would say only the human resources and hiring committees know what it is).
However, for the purposes of this post, comparing your grades to other Whirlpool users is completely pointless – it’s not as if you will have time to improve them in the two months from when the thread kicks off to when clerkship applications open!
In any event, if you have been networking from the start of your degree, hopefully you have a few contacts who are willing to help push your application to the top of the pile, regardless of your grades. This absolutely happens – now that is something I do know.
Nepotism and connections
Obviously law firms are very careful these days to avoid employing children or relatives of partners, and I have never seen it happen at my firm, even at the clerkship level. But the law industry is relatively small and the names of legal families (and other high net worth families with broad business connections) are well known. This means that other law firms will be looking closely at the candidate.
Put a well connected family and an intelligent and hardworking law student together and you have an extremely competitive clerkship application. Unfortunately for the rest of us, law is a business, so the person with connections will always have the advantage (I should say that this isn’t enough to convert into a graduate offer – they actually need to be impressive for the right reasons to get that).
As they say, it’s not about what you know, but who you know. While you can’t help what family you’re born into, you can do a lot of things – networking is at the top of that list.
Application screening is far from standard
Sometimes, two people will have similar marks and experience, but only one will receive a clerkship offer. Why would that be the case? This is a question I see asked or commented on quite frequently on Whirlpool.
The answer is pretty straightforward: most firms implement processes to standardise the clerkship application process, but they are usually always inundated with hundreds or even thousands of applications. The human resource departments usually take the first round of reviews and remove any undesirable applications. They then ask lawyers to help with the second round of reviews. For example, a lawyer will be given 10 applications and be asked to choose the best 2.
If you and a friend have very similar marks and extracurriculars, but only your friend got an offer at a particular firm, then it could be that a lawyer in the firm simply judged your application a little more harshly.
No one knows what the perfect mix of extracurriculars will be
Some people volunteer at community legal centres. Some people paralegal at law firms. Some people work in their existing jobs, such as hospitality and retail. Some people partake in university activities. Some do all of these and others do none!
I touched on this above. Don’t waste your energy on wondering what could have been if only you had changed your extracurriculars.
Some Whirlpools users sound like they they have it all figured out and just walked into a wall of clerkship offers. But you don’t know who their families are, what private school or law school they went to (that the interviewing partner also attended), what relationship they have to the firm, or what someone on the hiring committee thinks is important.
Choose your extracurriculars based on your own interests, and then sell your experience from them the best you can!
Don’t just look for excuses!
So some people have it easier than others, and some people just get handed a lucky run – that doesn’t mean you don’t have to critically review your own applications!
I looked at my applications a year or so after the clerkship season and was horrified! My coverletters were absolutely cringeworthy! My resume was also just embarrassing – the formatting made it look like I was a high-school student applying for my first job. I would have been struggling to get an offer even if I was the top law student in Australia. (And yes, I had these reviewed by a lawyer I knew, but he was obviously being kind – make sure you get a number of reviews!)
You might have spent an outrageous amount of time getting your applications perfect, but now you have some preliminary data telling you they your resume and coverletter don’t help you stand out. Don’t waste that information (or your future applications) by repeating what hasn’t worked for you so far.
Throw out your coverletter, find some example resumes on Google to emulate, and start them both from scratch.
Don’t stop looking
Don’t feed in to the Whirlpool pessimism that failing to get a clerkship means it is all over. Will it make it harder? Sure, if you want to work in a clerkship firm, but there are way more options out there. Now is not the time to wallow in self pity.
Consider the following:
- While most firms will be closing their clerkship applications after offers come out, other firms will only just be starting. Time to find the firms that aren’t signatories to your state’s law society guidelines.
- Get on Seek, go through every single firm listed in my post on mid tier firms (and the other related posts, just in case), and do some broad Google searches for other clerkship opportunities.
- Keep your eyes peeled for any other opportunities during this research period – for example, if you have just missed out on applying for a paralegal vacancy, or if you see that a law firm has taken on law students in the past, write the name of the firm down and email them in 6 months – it’s possible they might need assistance in the future, and you already know that they advertise for the kind of jobs you want.
- Start reaching out to your connections and let them know you’re interested in any clerkship, internship or paralegal opportunities.
- Just keep working at it, your persistence will pay off!
And finally, keep your head up!
I know – it sucks. Everyone on Whirlpools killed it except for you! It’s a massive blow and will take some time to get over, but keep your head up and continue working towards your goals.
It’s a thankless job being a law student, but if you’ve made it this far, you know that there is always something else on the list to do. This just means that you will need to cross out “clerkship/internship” a little later than other people, so best to get to it!
And all this nonsense about extra cirriculars! Firms go on marks, followed by marks, with maybe nepotism and/or being attractive as a tiebreaker! ECs are just a myth put about by the law schools to cover up for the fact that you basically need top 15% marks even to get an interview.
Still stick to my comment. Basically, if you’re not in the top 15% of your class in your law degree, its finito for your career. Unless you have nepotism/business connections to the firm, or you are a physically attractive person (big firms rarely hire uglies or oldies (ie 32years plus), regardless of marks) (If you dont believe me, just look at their websites).
Encouraging people to be ‘positive’ etc is just wasting more of their lives and time. Although after years of observing the most oversaturated job market in the history of the world, I’ve worked out the real culprits are the deluded law students themselves, (most of whom aren’t smart enough for maths/science, and can’t work with their hands) and who just can’t understand that they are not a special snowflake, and the world really really isn’t interested in their ‘skills’.
Hi Will,
You state that LPAB is NOT a prestigious qualification.
A breathless prestige is warranted by a Juris Doctor qualification, as though the portmanteau of the Law and Doctor confers achievement.
I’m fascinated to know if my instinct is accurate: I don’t wish this to be an ad hominem slight – but I imagine you as a mid twenties product of a Tiger Mum and one of the annoying library dwellers socialising with your peer group of the uncool.
Respect to anyone who graduates from Law, and more so those who had less ease of opportunity than privileged peers.
Lol, it’s a bit disingenuous to try to get out of an ad hominem attack by simply flagging that you don’t wish it to be an ad hominem attack. But that aside, and and assuming this isn’t a complete troll comment, your instinct is way off! I’m old (was a mature age student) and went to a crap public school in the country so not particularly privileged (but middle class still has it pretty good). I also have no idea what “library dwellers” and a “peer group of the uncool” mean.
I’m a good listener though, and it sounds like you need someone to vent to, so feel free to let it all out… 😉
Dear ‘Will’,
I want to make a comment on the supposed extra-curricular activities that may have contributed to gaining a position in a law firm and what these graduates are doing after they joined the firm.
When you go to law firm websites featuring profiles of lawyers and associates, you read about their non-law/extra-curricular activities such as: “when not practising law, X loves to walk her/his new pug ‘Bobo’, enjoys skiing and making dumplings” or “when not at firm XYZ, X loves to eat chocolate, bushwalking and contemplating the universe”.
In other words the law firm’s profiles of junior lawyers and associates never talk about their extra-curricular activities that may have landed them a job with a firm. For example, you never see “when not at firm XYZ, X continues to edit legal journals for a publisher, being captain of the hockey team and lead editor the university’s law journal.”
Alternative remark: if those firms are interested in your extra-curricular activities, one wouldn’t really be able to pursue those extra-curricular activities because there is no time for extra-curricular activities.
I got that off my chest,
Anthony, LLB(UNSW)
I have seen those ‘Whirlpool’ fora and the the talk something like “…you need HDs….”, “….you need HD/DNs…”, “…most firms prefer Gof8 graduates….”, “…you’re gone if you failed your first semeter…” I believe these comments are speculative and lack foundation even if a supposed poster quotes HR person or lawyer from a top tier firm.
While I cannot confirm that marks may count in securing a clerkship, I can say that very few people graduate with honours and those with honours are shared between law firms, management consultancies, non-law graduate programs and further studies such as postgraduate medicine.
However, there is one remark fate of mature aged graduates in top tier firms. I went to the site of a top-tier firm, and looked at the face of its graduates and laywers, https://www.gtlaw.com.au/people select under the ‘Role’ list ‘graduates’ and ‘lawyers’. I saw no mature-aged worker under ‘graduates’ and very few workers looking mature-aged under the ‘lawyers’. Maybe the mature-aged worker did not apply to the firm. But I’m not privy to whether mature-aged graduates have applied to a certain firm.
A question I’d like to ask is in regards to employment, if it is “who you know rather than what you know”, can anybody explain whether those graduates with connections to top tier firms put something on their resume to say “my uncle used to work at firm X” or whether a graduate with connections asks the connected person to contact a senior partner or HR person to facilitate getting a job.
Thank you,
Anthony
Hi Anthony
Yes, there’s a lot of speculation on the Whirlpool forum threads. There can be some useful and helpful information, but sometimes I worry that students will read through them and feel everything is hopeless. The idea that you need HDs to score a clerkship is obviously not true, but I think it’s fair to say that if you have good grades then it’s one less thing going against you. I’m sure it’s one of many criteria that HR look at.
Regarding mature aged students, we usually have one or two in each round of graduates in our office (I was one of them in my year). I’m not sure if that is representative of the mature aged students studying law. I assume many mature aged students are aware of what is required at larger corporate firms, such as GT, and don’t apply – who knows?
In response to your question, if you know someone who works at the firm then I would let HR know. I did it and it helped me get an interview at a mid tier and probably my grad role at the top tier firm I’m currently at. It doesn’t need to be nepotism either (and on this point, nepotism alone won’t get people very far – they also need to be switched on and be able to do very good work). My connections were through good old fashioned networking… I just put up a post today on networking here so take a look if you’re interested: http://youveenteredlawland.com/successful-networking-for-law-students/
There are a few tips on what you can do to increase your chances at landing a clerkship or graduate role, if that’s what you’re after.
Cheers
Will
Dear Will,
Thank you for your reply. It is appreciated. I too am a mature-aged graduate and am a full time carer. While I was caring, I studied for the LLB at a Gof8 and finished a few years ago.
In the early stages of my degree, while not failing, I was close to floundering and quitting. I really appreciated the support from my mother, friends, a padre and a few university staff. On one occasion I was about to quit,a very kind staff person spent some time with me with the effect of the discussion to dissuade me (indirectly) from quitting.
When I graduated with pleasing results I thanked the university officer. My electives average was slightly better than a distinction average. To put it another way, I satisfied the academic requirements for post-graduate study in law, commerce and med without the gamsat and interview at USyd.
During my time as a student, the biggest criticisms came from the mature-aged students such as “…you’re not Freehills material…” and “…top tiers won’t accept you because you’re not young….” Maybe I am or maybe I’m not Freehills material, it’s up to them.
But then like the mature age students and other authority figures that I have encountered, the teachers and counsellor at school were prognosticating that I’d be no good for university in years 10 and 12. Pity that for a pretend catholic school they weren’t charitable to me and advising me how to improve myself and use my God-given talents.
The lesson is not to believe what others define you as.
The issue for me is that many of the positions for law graduates are full time and not part time. The other issue is that because of my time as a carer, I have not been able to take part in ECs that I’ll be looked down upon.
I do keep my mind occupied and am pursuing studying computer languages and hope to market my device (hardware and software) in the near future. Apologies for vagueness.
For me I can hold my head high. I have achieved entry into a degree with a CSP into one of the hardest universities to get admitted.That’s in addition to a small scholarship. No HECS debt! More than that I gained a set of intangible transferrable skills for which I am grateful. No-one can rob me of that.
Regards
Anthony LLB(UNSW)
Nope. If you dont get a clerkship, its all over. Telling people to keep trying is just prolonging the misery. And law firms do hire based on nepotism, and ABSOLUTELY hire on physical appearance (very obvious when you see the people that work at big law firms).
I mean, this is obviously just not correct. It’s not even correct if one assumes you’re being really loose with your generalisations. Most jobs are found after PLT. The number of jobs that are available through the clerkship/graduate pathway are quite limited (hence the intense competition).
Like I said, I don’t know anyone currently working at my firm who is a child or niece/nephew of a partner/counsel (though there was one when I just started), but I’m at a large firm so I think they generally avoid it. I see it a lot at smaller firms but they generally don’t have clerkships so they aren’t really the focus of this post.
Anyway, stop being so dramatic. People have worked hard during their law degrees – sometimes all it takes to land a job is to continue working hard, some persistence, for a few months once it’s finished.
Hey Will, thanks for this post. A lot of advice out there about how to get jobs, but not much stuff on what happens if it fails. I’m overly simplifying your blog post, but even if you bottled it down to just ‘keep trying’, it does feel a bit hopeless in the face of all the negativity associated with not landing a clerkship/the general difficulties of finding graduate positions.
At the end of the day hearing someone just say that it’s possible to get work after clerkship periods are over really is reassuring, and just hearing that is absolutely enough to make one keep working hard at it.
Hi Johnny
That was my perspective going into final year without any clerkships – I figured I would just keep working on finding opportunities until I decided it was no longer worth it. I definitely agree that it can feel hopeless but just do your best to push on.
The speed in which people found jobs varied a lot though. I recall a lot of people finding jobs within the first few months, but then it petered off. I guess after a few months people start looking for other things.
That said, I was flicking through my LinkedIn connections the other week and saw someone, almost 3 years after graduating, finally picking up a private firm job in a disputes team. He had originally picked up a law-related role – case manager for mediation or disputes or something (didn’t know him very well so never spoke after uni). I assume he missed out at graduation, used his law degree to enter into a closely related field, and just stuck it out until he found a suitable legal job. It seems like a long time to wait but he probably won’t feel that way when he’s 50 or so and looking back.
Always a way to get there if you have the patience.
Cheers
Will
Hi Will,
Thanks for writing this blog!
As you have stated above:
“People have worked hard during their law degrees – sometimes all it takes to land a job is to continue working hard, some persistence, for a few months once it’s finished.”
This is entirely correct, and Terry is obviously not right, as you have pointed out. I finished my degree without a graduate program lined up, but after a couple of months of searching, applying widely and continually trying to gain experience/networking, I am now working at a top tier law firm. It is definitely achievable to get into the profession with some persistence.
Great work, congrats!
“terry” up above is right about law firms (and all other graduate programmes) hiring based on physical appearance. If your physical features include yellow, brown or black skin, or a vagina, then you are a priority candidate for pretty much every major employer in Australia.
Ummmmmmm, I’m sorry for what happened to you in your life, but this isn’t the incel or some whitepride subreddit. Law firms generally have solid recruitment practices, and choose interviewers who have social awareness skills that are better than most, so I can guarantee you that you didn’t get sidelined because of what you look like…